Over at Armchair Empire, there’s a post about story in games. We’ve talked about that before, in Tell Me A Story and When Story Matters in RPGs.
The author, Jeff Nash, built his piece on Wizardry: Proving Grounds Of The Mad Overlord. His contention is that, while the game had no real story in itself, the player had total freedom to create the story mentally.
Maybe so, but I don’t quite agree. When I played Wizardry, my main concern was just staying alive, sweating every inch of the way. No story was building up in my mind.
It is certainly true that your typical hack-and-slash product has a thin plot at best, and the player can fill in details if so inclined. But how many really do that?
From previous comments here, I know that at least some do. But to me, doing a dungeon crawl is just that, and it’s not worthwhile to make something up as I go along. It simply isn’t satisfactory.
On the other hand, it’s also true that having a real story, such as in Neverwinter Nights and similar, puts the player in something of a straitjacket. The tale is already written, and your choices - if any - are already set.
This is the problem with CRPGs, as we’ve noted before. They aren’t flexible, and there is no true way for the player to go outside pre-defined limits.
Read the article and see what you think.
Scorpia,
Shouldn’t the title for Wizardry 1 and other dungeon crawls be:
WHERE’S the Story???
I admit that games like:
Rouge
Wizardry 1
Eye of the Beholder Trilogy
Dungeon Master (did anyone play Dungeon Master 2 released by Interplay?)
Dungeon Hack
Are fun, but I would hardly call them CRPGS
Just like games like:
Diablo 1 and 2
Titan Quest
and other “action/RPG”
are hardly CRPGS either. They are just fatasy shooters.
Ah, let’s not start the argument as to what is or is not an RPG, Presto ;) We’ve been around the block with that one too many times.
The more modern games do tend to have a bit more substance to them than the old ones did. There’s certainly more to Titan Quest, for instance, than there is to Wiz or the Rogue games.
The question is whether games that have little or no plot are better for story purposes because the player can make up the story.
LOL - was getting afraid we’d get into it again.
I think there is definitely something to be said for leaving parts up to the players’ imagination. The classic example I always site is The Sims. There’s NO story in that game, yet players see the connections, the causality, and see an entire soap opera going on.
There’s probably a happy medium in there somewhere. At least, I hope there is. I chaffe when games are TOO structured (even when they make pretenses at linearity) — traditional storytelling is in some ways the antithesis of interactive gameplay. While I haven’t played it yet, I’ve heard much bellyaching about the cutscenes screwing around with the best-planned preparations.
Of all the magic in the game, “Power Word: Plot” is by far the most powerful at ruining your whole day :)
But it’s also what makes a CRPG so delightful and memorable. I tried the most generic and abstract RPG in the world, and it was fun for… well, five minutes? Maybe.
Even I eventually grew tired of Progress Quest, and I was infinitely amused by it for a while. Poor Chirponius now languishes on the server. Sniff.
I prefer a happy medium in storytelling. I can no longer stand to play games that have NO story at all - except the Sims, but that’s different. I doubt ANYONE would try to argue that the Sims is a CRPG. (I could be wrong, of course.) If there’s a minimal story at least, I can construct my character’s motivations and such in my mind (though if it’s TOO minimal I don’t want to bother).
I like a general story but with freedom to do other things along the way with little bits of other minor plots contained in a large, overarching plot (like Morrowind and Oblivion and even Baldur’s Gate, I guess).
However, for me the storytelling itself can be good enough to carry a game (within reason). I don’t mind a linear sort of game if the story is enjoyable, well-written, well-told, and has memorable characters and dialog. Knights of the Old Republic, for instance, was very linear (you could choose which order to visit the planets in after the first bit, but you did have to visit all of them eventually - none could simply be skipped and none were there just for variety). But the story was very well done and the characters were terrific. I really enjoyed that one.
So I guess it depends on the quality of the game. :)
Het people, don’t you know what a happy medium is?
A happy medium is a woman you just gave a $100 to to perform a seance for you. Even though she knows at least 10 mediums that would have done it for $50 (even one that would have done it for $25.).
Presto, go hide in shame after that one! ;)
Games that have no story, and just the goal of “Kill Foozle”, tend to be boring. Those like Neverwinter run you along a railroad, and however interesting the tale, I tend to become restless with it sooner or later.
Even Oblivion has a problem. You can step entirely outside the story of the game, but it makes little sense to do so.
If there’s a good inbetween for this situation, I hope someone comes up with it soon.
Okay, Scorpia - I’ve been wondering this for a long time…
“Kill the Foozle” - was that term coined by you? If not, where’d you pick it up?
‘Klara:
I haven’t heard anyone accuse The Sims of being a CRPG, only that it had RPG-like elements.
But I tend to draw parallels from all over :) After all, other games tend to borrow “RPG-like elements” to enhance their gameplay — seems only fitting that RPGs should borrow from other games too, where it makes sense.
The best “happy medium” games that come to mind offhand might be games like Thief and Ultima Underworld (both, perhaps not coincidentally, by Looking Glass, back in the day). The games had requirements for what you were to do, but seemed to not make assumptions about how you did them.
Another example that I can think of came from Operation Flashpoint (click link for the full story). What worked nicely there was that there was a solid, dramatic set-up (you are captured, and are about to be executed by a firing squad), and an opportunity presents itself to make a break for it. What happens from that point on is handled organically. There was no “right” way to do it.
Coyote, it was something I came up with to be a universal representation of the ultimate enemy (or enemies) to defeat at the end of the game.
Later, much later, I discovered that “foozle” is also a term in golf, a game I never played and in which I haven’t the least interest.
How dare they steal my creation? Alas, it is true, there is nothing new under the sun.
Very interesting about Operation Flashpoint. Sounds quite sophisticated for the time period, and I can see where you’d be enthralled with it.
Reminds me of Fallout, where there were multiple ways of destroying the military base and the mutant master’s HQ.
For some reason I didn’t even think of Fallout (which I loved) but yes, that was a pretty good “happy medium” (without the psychic overtones). You still had to complete the important goals, but the way you did it was very open.
Ah-hah! Well, now I know for sure where “Kill the Foozle” came from. I suspected it was you — but it’s used all the time now by people who haven’t heard of you.
Anyway - yeah, Fallout probably falls into that happy medium I’m thinking of. Ideally a game would not only allow flexibility and deviations within the storyline, but actually have the story adapt itself to the player’s actions. Within reason. It’s a bit of a holy grail, of course - something to strive for, but never to attain.
Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines tried to go that direction, too. They tried to create multiple solutios for about every mission. And far-reaching consequences for them, in some cases. For example, masquerade violations could solve certain problems a little easier, but would result in the appearance of vampire hunters later. There were many times you could engage in a diplomatic solution, a stealthy solution, or a combat solution. There wasn’t a “right” way.
Unfortunately, this was offset by mandatory combats where all the effort you put into making your character a diplomatic or stealth expert were wasted, and you had to go through an encounter made far more difficult because you DIDN’T dump all your points into statting up a straightforward combat monster.
Ouch! Sounds like they were going in the right direction and then got derailed, Coyote. That’s too bad. But even mandatory combats could be handled properly if they made allowance for the type of charater you had (though a diplomatic sort might have been more difficult ;).
I am still trying to find a copy of Bloodlines locally, but it looks like I’m going to have to order online. I really want to play that one!
Sometime this weekend I’ll be getting Jade Empire and am really looking forward to that. I’ve heard great things about the story and characters in that game, though I get the impression that it’s a linear railroad through the story. Still, as I said about KoTOR, if it’s done well enough I don’t mind.
Ah Klara, big mistake! You should know by now not to be in a rush to get a new release. At least wait for the second patch!
Jade Empire SE is in the stores now. I’ve found it in Best Buys yesterday.
Sounds like Scorpia is getting jaded with her last comment.
So, who wants to conquer the Immortal Throne next week?
Or is this a week quest-ion??
Jade Empire tempts me but I think I’ll let some other guinea pig try out the PC version and report before I make the plunge. After Dreamfall I’ll never buy an RPG or Adventure that has action-game components without reassurances that the PC port was done well.
Dellaster,
You’re only listing Dreamfall?
Did you (or anyone else for that matter) play Ultima 8????
Ultima 8 was NOT an RPG AND should not have been called an Ultima AT ALL.
And Scorpia tells me to hide in shame. I wonder what she wants Richard G. to do after THIS game.
Well, I figure Jade Empire is probably fairly stable, since it was out for the consoles way before this. The reviews and such that I’ve read say it is, and I haven’t read of any horrible bugs yet (though I’ve been trying to avoid spoiling the game so I haven’t read as much as I might later).
Besides, I seem to be lucky enough with my system configuration to not have many bug problems - at least, I never had the horrible Oblivion bugs or NWN2 bugs that others reported.
But even mandatory combats could be handled properly if they made allowance for the type of charater you had (though a diplomatic sort might have been more difficult ;).
Well, I could Monday Morning Quarterback it and suggest that from ideally, the diplomatic / mastermind style character should have a “posse” that does the fighting for ‘em :) Or at least comes in with an assist. Partners, henchmen, cronies, allies, whatever.
Actually implementing that in code, data, and user interface is a whole ‘nother story, though.
Klara, there have been games released overseas that only reached here months later and still needed patches. I would never go by early reviews myself. I wait for the actual paytest..ah, early players (ahem) to report on how a game runs.
Presto, that was a bad pun, and you know it (besides, you beat me to it ;).
Pagan was a terrible game and I agree, did not merit being called an Ultima. How much Lord B. had to do with that one, I don’t know. I do know they were never quite the same since Ultima VI, the first non-Apple product.
Dell, like I said, it might be harder to do something for the diplomatic character. But if they’re going to allow one, they should have had something for that as an alternate.
Gahhhh oh yes, Pagan was awful. And you’re right, Scorp, I don’t think Lord British did that one, or the other spin-off that was sometimes called Ultima 9 that I thankfully never saw.
I really liked Ultima 7, though. That game was unnerving in just the right ways.
Well, LB himself was the one who said that they were trying to reach out to new audiences with that one. But in an explanation later on Gamespy, he explained:
Hah! I can easily explain. If you look at Ultima 8 — and that’s my least favorite of the series — the causes are multiple, but understandable. Look at Origin’s history with Electronic Arts … we became part of that company halfway through the development of Ultima 7. That game was the most inventive game in the series, and my favorite, and Ultima 8 wound up being the most generic and derivative.
Ultima 7 was kind of the game’s ultimate realization … every object was useful and touchable, and the story made sense; it was the Ultima of Ultimas for me. One of the first mistakes I made starting with Ultima 8 was to let Electronic Arts convince me that it was better to ship every year on a predictable schedule then to ship a game at an unknown future date when it was actually done and ready to go out the door. It was a belief engendered by the success the company had with its sports franchises. Although these games introduced only slight technological upgrades from year to year, because everyone knew when they were coming out, it was easy for EA to market them and make big money.
EA believed this was true for all games. The counsel — and sometimes it was more than just counsel — I would get from EA was that the schedule was the dominant issue. Once we started down the path on Ultima 8, I decided I would be a good corporate citizen and walk the walk and talk the talk. And as Ultima 8 got into scheduling trouble, as every Ultima always did, rather than make a decision as we had in the past to hold the game until it was polished, we began to cut things out to stay on schedule. And we cut and we cut and we cut and the game that was finally released was not only shipped early even for the cut version (and therefore buggy), but also had its guts ripped out as far as being an Ultima.
It’s really sad because there are parts of it I think were done very well, in the sense that the tile graphics and the foundation were outstanding. It had by far the most detailed character animation of any game to date. It was way ahead of its time in many years, but just wasn’t a complete game.
Ultima IX
Ultima 9 had a different set of problems. Consider I’m much happier with it than Ultima 8. However, due to Ultima 8 and my fights with EA over things like Ultima Online, they actually didn’t want me to do Ultima 9. They wanted me to only be involved in Ultima Online. And I was of the opinion that I sat down to do nine Ultimas, and set down a storyline in Ultima 7 that carried through Ultima 9, so now I’m going to finish it.
So, Ultima 9, throughout its development, was the bastard child of Electronic Arts and suffered from that lack of support. But we persevered anyway, and I think it came out pretty well. There were some areas I wish we could have taken the time to make better, but considering the rocky road of internal support it had, it actually turned out quite nicely.
Wow. And here I always thought he had nothing to do with those disasters.
But it’s interesting to see what he had to say about them. And it’s an insight into what’s happening with so many of the bug-filled games that get released these days, too.
Scorpia,
After reading the above,
ARE YOU SURE THERE’S NO RELATION BETWEEN AE AND EA???
Thanks for the quote, Coyote. It does explain somewhat the situation with Pagan. U9 I didn’t touch, and wouldn’t want to.
Presto, you may have something there. The letters can’t be mere coincidence ;)
Si, senora,
EA es el nuevo EA de computer games.
Scorpia,
In other words, EA IS the AE in the computer game industry.
I believe only Sirra and EA are still around from the 1980’s. I believe Sirra is just a little older than EA. So, when is Sirra going to bring back their well-known adventure games? (i.e. King’e Quest, Police Quest, Police Quest, et al.)
Presto, nope. I never played Ultima 8. But I mentioned Dreamfall because it was a problematic port from console to PC (mouse/keyboard issues).
GelleKlara, okay you convinced me. I purchased Jade Empire from BioWare’s online store and I’m downloading now. It’s going at a nice clip — 1.2 MB/sec. An estimated hour and a half for 6 gigabytes.
I chose this method because a) I want to encourage companies to offer DL games, b) I’m pretty sure BioWare itself will get more of the money instead of middlemen, and c) so long as BioWare’s store is in operation I’ll never lose the game. I can re-download at any time. A good thing for people like me who tend to lose game discs. (e.g. KotOR I disappeared in my last move and I have no idea how or where. A box or bag with it and some other things I’ve noticed missing went *poof* like socks in a dryer.)
Unfortunately being on Dial Up means I can’t download games - it would take me the rest of my life! I’m hoping to be able to go pick it up this weekend at Best Buy. Also, if the company goes out of business like 3DO did you won’t be able to get it again! :( (Not that I think BioWare will go under anytime soon.)
I really don’t think I’ll have any problems with it, but if I do I’ll let Scorpia say “I told you so!”
And Presto, Sierra isn’t really around anymore. They got bought out by Valve and though there are games published under the Sierra logo, Roberta and Ken Williams have nothing to do with that company. It’s just a name now. :(
Yeah, I don’t trust downloadable content. Especially if it means you have to be connected to play (you know, the game “phones home” to be sure it’s a legit copy). And yes, if a company goes down the tubes or otherwise decides to stop supporting the game, you’re in trouble.
Sierra’s been through a couple of hands and I think the Williams stopped being part of it from the time they were bought by some French company. And yes, about the only brand left these days is Bethesda.
Oh, and if you do get Jade Empire, be sure to let us know if it has (ahem) a story, since that’s where this thread began ;)
Sorry about the topic drift. If only we had forums … ;)
JE only need connection once for the initial install. Thereafter you don’t have to connect. No disc in the drive required for play like the CD/DVD version, which is a big plus IMO. You can burn the install files “by hand” to a DVD for backup. BioWare is promising an easier, more automated, disc backup solution soon.
I’ve only gotten into the tutorial-like beginning. Very story-focused (to get back on topic ;)). Conversations skills have their own character sheet page which suggests more depth than just beat-em-up. The action game is a rock, paper, scissors sort of thing. Not too complicated or needing of superhuman reflexes. I may be able to handle this. ;)
I wonder if the DVD version needs to be connected for install? That would stink a bit since my daughter’s computer isn’t hooked up to the ‘net. We’ve always found a way around that before, though. It just takes some searching and waiting for a clever gamer to make a fixed file for it.
Thanks for the initial info, Dell! I hope the story is as good as I’ve heard. I’m slavering to play it… argh!!!